Date: 09/07/2024 09/08/2024
Location: Star Lake Meditation Center
Teacher: Otto Huang
Dharma Talk:
Is taking a nap a sign of foolishness?
— Sakya’s Debate Challenge (Part Two)
…[Continuation of the Challenge Debate with Sakya]
Shortly after his defeat in debate with the Buddha, the non-believer Sakya came to challenge the Buddha again.
Having been embarrassed in front of a crowd previously, this time Sakya came alone and quietly, hoping to avoid public humiliation if defeated again.
Although Ananda saw that Sakya had come with ill intentions, he kindly wished that Sakya could benefit from the Buddha’s teachings, so he asked the Buddha, who was about to go for alms in the city, to sit down and talk with him.
After bowing to the Buddha, Sakya began with some peripheral topics:
“Master Gautama! Some ascetics and brahmins focus only on disciplining the body and not the mind. In the past, some have suffered bodily and became stiff-legged, vomited blood, and went mad, which shows that the ‘mind is commanded by the body’ due to not training the mind.
Some ascetics and brahmins focus only on disciplining the mind and not the body. In the past, some have suffered mentally and became stiff-legged, vomited blood, and went mad, which shows that the ‘body is commanded by the mind’ due to not training the body.”
“Householder! What do you know about disciplining the body?” asked the Buddha.
Sakya cited some examples of ascetics who eat very little and follow strange prohibitions, thinking that’s what disciplining the body is about. The Buddha then countered:
“Householder! Do they always eat so little to sustain themselves?”
“No! Master Gautama, sometimes they eat nutritious and delicious foods, so their bodies can regain weight.”
“Householder! They reject and then indulge in overeating, their weight fluctuating up and down. How is that disciplining the body? And, what do you know about disciplining the mind?”
Sakya was at a loss for words.
At this point, the Buddha told him:
“Householder! The disciplining of the body you just described is not the discipline of the saints. If you don’t even know how to discipline the body, how can you know about disciplining the mind? Let me explain it to you, listen carefully.
Householder! An untrained person, upon feeling joy clings to desires, upon feeling pain, grieves and cries. When experiencing pleasant sensations, they attach because the body isn’t disciplined; when experiencing painful sensations, they attach because the mind isn’t disciplined; when the mind clings to both, it shows neither the body nor the mind is disciplined.
Householder! A well-trained holy disciple, upon feeling joy does not cling to desires, upon feeling pain does not grieve or cry. When experiencing pleasant sensations, they do not attach because the body is disciplined; when experiencing painful sensations, they do not attach because the mind is disciplined; when neither clings to both, it is because both the body and the mind are disciplined.”
“I have full confidence in your statement, ‘Master Gautama is one who disciplines both the body and the mind,'” Sakya responded.
“Of course, Householder! Although your words are offensive, I am still willing to tell you that since my ordination, my mind has not clung to feelings of pleasure or pain.”
“Has Master Gautama never clung to feelings of pleasure or pain?” Sakya was still somewhat doubtful.
Thus, the Buddha detailed his experiences of deep meditation, ascetic practices, and enlightenment that he had undergone (as described in the second story, “The Buddha’s Learning Process”), to illustrate that he no longer clung to feelings of pleasure or pain.
“Sakya! I have preached to hundreds of people, and perhaps among the listeners, some may think I am speaking against them, but that should not be thought so. Sakya! When I preach, it is for everyone to know, not against anyone in particular. Once the preaching is over, my mind remains calm and empty as before.”
“I believe that, Master Gautama! Despite my repeated offensive challenges, you still respond kindly, just as I imagined a fully enlightened liberator would. Unlike Purana Kassapa, MakkhaliGosala, AjitaKesakambali, PakudhaKaccayana, Sanjaya Belatthiputta, and NiganthaNataputta, when I challenged them, they often hesitated, evaded, and then became angry and pained.Master Gautama! Excuse the disturbance, we are all busy and have many things to do, so I will take my leave now.”
